Curse

Deadly Eyezz · Jun 12, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

You guys talk like Guild Wars is the only game with bad players.
I played alot of other MMO's before guild wars, and there was always the bad player.
Whenever you go people tell you to be better you have to group with people learn from them.
Well everyone guess what,no you're not that good if you solo the game.
You can't say that's you're a good player without playing with others.
You might've been as bad as the guys you are making fun of, but the problem is that your ego makes you think you're so damn good.

WinterSnowblind · Jun 12, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

You guys talk like Guild Wars is the only game with bad players.
I played alot of other MMO's before guild wars, and there was always the bad player.
Whenever you go people tell you to be better you have to group with people learn from them.
Well everyone guess what,no you're not that good if you solo the game.
You can't say that's you're a good player without playing with others.
You might've been as bad as the guys you are making fun of, but the problem is that your ego makes you think you're so damn good.

No. Just no.

You're suggesting that those of us who have finished all three campaigns, play PVP, have good skill-bars, etc, are as bad as those who draw genitals on the map, use mending and healing signets and don't know how to use their own profession correctly.

Yeah, you will see bad players in any game you play, but ego really has nothing to do with this. I don't pretend to be the best player in the world, infact, I'm sure I'm not even as good as most players on this forum, but I know for a fact that I am better than a lot of random players out that, it has nothing to do with ego.

Deadly Eyezz · Jun 12, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Can you blame them? no one wants to team with them and teach them.
And yes not everyone on guild wars knows Guild Wars Guru or wiki to learn.

Edit: Typo.

Etta · Jun 12, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Can you blame them? no one wants to team with them and teach them.

And can you blame us? When they are not willling to listen or learn, and throw our suggestions back in our faces? R/E who ran around with fire spells build, shouting "I'm a druid! I live in the wood and know magic!", an ele who thinks he's a monk, a monk who thinks he's an ele. A W/A who used bow and wear no body armor, a Necro who thinks he's darkknight and die every 50 sec. You name it I've seen it.

Hey! I'm all for freedom to play the game however you wish, just don't expect to team up with us and waste our time. I was a noob as well when I first started long ago, but I was lucky that my ex-leader was teaching me the art of GW. This game is not the only game that have bad players, but this game give us choice to play with them or not.

Nothing wrong with being inexperience as long as you're willing to learn and listen. Wearing ego jacket is a waste of time, but then again I might be so damn good that I hardly care anymore.

Thank you.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jun 12, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Gonna re-itterate whats been said already. Heroes are as much as you make them, be they the salvation or destruction of the game, it's all down to individual perspective. My personal experience is of massively improved henchmen that have not only made places like Realm Of Torment easier, but have enabled me to improve my own game massively over the past half a year. I'd be lying if I said I didn't think I was a worse player 6 months ago. Yeah, more people play solo now, but if others were to begrudge them that much, they would be no better than the lamentable PuGs you can find just about anywhere.

Every time a thread like this turns up, it's the same old story, we get people who tell H/H players to go find a single player game. Well, I don't think that would honestly solve anything, would it? If they left the game, it certainly wouldn't improve the quality of PuGs. Infact, it would have no impact on the game at all. Then you have people that swear by H/H. It's a fair stance to take, considering how easy it is to burn your hands with a bad PuG and not everyone can rely on friends/guildies 24/7. There is that little thing called real life, you know...

"Heroes are both an enchantment and a hex," yeah, that sounds about right. On the one hand, they add so many extra ways to play the game, but on the other, they drain a lot of the talent from the PuG pool. But we're stuck with them now, whats done is done and I'm sure 99% of us couldn't live without them. (If anything, can you imagine what a logistical nightmare it would be to remove heroes from the game at this point...?)

Deadly Eyezz · Jun 12, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Just if they make it 3 heroes or 3 henchies max in missions this would solve alot of problems, you have 3 AI slots go with heroes or henchies.
This way the MMO element in this game wont die.

margretli · Jun 12, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c

>> to most ppl here who tell that only ppl complaining bout heros are noobs who cant handle shit alone.

Well, I am not a noob. As a matter a fact, i think i am a good player. Many others had a same opinion. And I DO complain about heroes and hench, sure for some of you they might be god sent but that isnt the case for everyone. Did you ever really tried to create a PUG? You can invite anyone you like, check their builds, and kick em if you dont like em. So, when you have your full group of non-noobs you can go out there and have some fun, maybe even discover some nice person. "But noooo, that is too long, i will just grab my heroes and hench and solo everything..." Well let me tell you something, you can't say for yourself that you are good player till you complete many missions with real players, coz thats when your talent comes to surface, your leadership, your ability to correct other ppl's mistakes. Playing with NPC's is liek farming to me, always the same shit, you can't expect any diffrence. They might be "perfect" companions, but they are always the same, so you can't improve yourself.... and you wont always get perfect circumstances, neither ingame or in life. So better get used to it right away.

Being kicked because the leader of the PUG did not "like me (or my build)" and being corrected of my "mistakes" during play are both reasons why I don't like to PUG with random people.

Also, those two points in your post, 6am3 Fana71c, are the reason why people will not improve neither in-game or in real life. Constantly thinking that they know everything is hardly a sign of an inquiring mind...

Smile Like Umean It · Jun 12, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Can you blame them? no one wants to team with them and teach them.
And yes not everyone on guild wars knows Guild Wars Guru or wiki to learn.

Edit: Typo.

Yes, yes I can. I can blame them for drawing crooked penises on the mini map. I can blame them for running ahead and aggroing a second group and then bringing it back to our monk because they're about to die. I can blame them for the racist, sexist and downright vile bullshit that comes out of their mouth.

If you want help or need something explained to you then ask. Being uninformed is no excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Just if they make it 3 heroes or 3 henchies max in missions this would solve alot of problems, you have 3 AI slots go with heroes or henchies.
This way the MMO element in this game wont die.

No. Just no.
What happens when you decide to do a mission that rarely has anyone there or you just want the bonus? Basically you're SOL until some random strangers comes by.

If the only way for you to save something is by forcing people into it then it's already over.

Bryant Again · Jun 12, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

PUGs are dead. There isn't anything you can do to fix them at this state.

WinterSnowblind · Jun 12, 2007, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Just if they make it 3 heroes or 3 henchies max in missions this would solve alot of problems, you have 3 AI slots go with heroes or henchies.
This way the MMO element in this game wont die.

But then you kill the freedom the game has. Like I said before, I enjoy playing the game with a friend or two, not to join up with other people. Limiting Heroes/henchies would completely destroy the game for people like me, by forcing them to team up with others.

In my opinion, things are fine as they are. It's very possible to play the game by yourself, if you're good enough, or in a small group. But at the same time you can still play with seven others if you want. If you want to play the game as an MMO, ignoring the heroes/henchmen, then you can do that. But the changes your suggesting would only ruin the game for others, to a point were a lot of us would simply stop playing.

Play the game the way you want to play it, I can respect that. But you shouldn't force others to play it the way you think it should be played. Guild Wars has always been advertised as a game you can play in large groups, or just as a single player experience.

Evilsod · Jun 12, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Wait for a pug to form for that bonus that will probably fail because we have 1 moron who overlures, or a leaver, or an afk, etc, etc. Long list of things that lead to failure or just the team never even starting.

Or

Take heros with builds you want, bring along a few hench for support, start straight away, can go afk whenever you want without making people wait, will actually be around for things like vanquishes.

If you fail with a pug its generally not your fault, if you fail with H/H it either is your fault for not controlling them well enough or because your build just isn't right for the area.

Find me a pug that can form for a Dreadnoughts Drift vanquish in under 5minutes and suceed and i will never use heros again. Since it is very possible to vanquish said area with H/H.

Formosa · Jun 12, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Heroes haven't stopped people from playing with each other in PvE. It has allowed people to run even endgame areas with less real players while still keeping a strong group. I've found PvE to be more accessable with heroes, while I find myself taking pickups less and less.

Because, seriously, this group is stronger, faster, and more consistent than anything you'll pick up in the international districts:

Sure you can find players that are stronger than Zhed or Dunkoro...but you have to sort through a bunch of abysmal players to find them, not to mention people who leave mid-mission, wipe the group running for a chest or gold, or go AFK unannounced for long periods of time. Why mess around with them when Zhed is always ready to follow targets and otherwise stand where you need him to?

For all the flak I'll give it, Guild Wars is a "hard" PvE game. Skill selection is really deep and complicated for a lot of players, and if you don't understand the game on the skill level things become a whole lot more difficult on the execution level. Most other MMOs that require grouping, ala WoW, are absurdly simple and as a result accessable. Playing through the game solo requires virtually nothing from the player; the only variable is how long it takes you to achieve the goal. Even endgame raids require very little from most players. Sure someone has to figure out how to finish an encounter, but for most people it's a matter of following directions and using a skill or two...the real limitations are more gear than people's ability to follow orders (one would hope).

Contrast that with Guild Wars, where they've removed clear gear progression (which allows you to brute force encounters no matter how bad you are) and requires some minimal amount of execution and understanding of the character build system to be successful. The combination really allows certain builds and players to excel, much more than the WoW system does...with the consequence of those who don't 'get it' being comparatively that much further behind.

Peace,
-CxE

Oh man, this is great. When you called Guild Wars a "hard" PvE game I almost rofled. What's the hardest encounter now? Mallyx? Isn't that about the only encounter where you can't pick up the seven / eleven people nearest to you and still have a shot at beating it? Right right, after not playing Guild Wars for around 8 months I got a group for Hard Mode Deep the other day. We finished. A total PUG. Try doing that in WoW for the simplest raid encounter and you probably stand no chance.

Then you talk about gear being the only real factor in WoW. You must not pay attention to the WoW news much, because so far two guilds have downed the current hardest raid encounter in the game (Illidan in Black Temple). Neither of those guilds had gear from beyond the first few raid encounters (for those of you who can't understand this kind of WoW-speak, Black Temple could be considered a "Tier-6" raid dungeon. These guilds were in "Tier-4" and "Tier-5" gear). A lot of other guilds were on the same gear level as the two that cleared Black Temple. Clearly a matter of gear over skill. o wait....

Then, skill selection is not "deep" and "complicated". I seriously wonder what you were on when you made this post or if you're seriously that much of a fanboy. Elementalist builds deep and complicated? Any 9 year old with some common sense and reading comprehension could figure out how to use a Searing Flames / Meteor Shower PvE build. Yet somehow PvE is "hard" when you can AoE down every mob while they are knocked down for over half the time. Seriously, Guild Wars PvE is a joke.

I can feel that you have almost no experience with real WoW endgame. You're under the mindset that boss fights are incredibly simple (of course this is kind of difficult to explain to a person who plays a game where there is no concept of aggro). Tank rotations, combat tables, threat....all foreign concepts to you, yet somehow Guild Wars PvE is "hard." Man will it be a surprise to you when you play a game where "tanking" is something more than being the first person to run into a group of mobs...

wetsparks · Jun 12, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Just if they make it 3 heroes or 3 henchies max in missions this would solve alot of problems, you have 3 AI slots go with heroes or henchies.
This way the MMO element in this game wont die.

And for when you are going for cartography titles or skill hunter? Unless our characters can level up more and be stronger and have better weapons and armor, going out in any late game area with only 4 people will most likely be suicide.

Dragasa · Jun 12, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Well everyone guess what,no you're not that good if you solo the game.

Yes, I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

You can't say that's you're a good player without playing with others.

And you say that no one will play with you, so I assume you're not a good player. Get better and maybe people will let you join their pugs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

You might've been as bad as the guys you are making fun of, but the problem is that your ego makes you think you're so damn good.

Yet you make a thread saying that people should be forced to play with you. That's an ego. Or a sad cry for attention.

It's been said already, heroes didn't kill the social aspect of the game, the people did. I don't seem to have a problem getting into groups when I want, so I would think that maybe it's your attitude that's keeping you out. These threads pop up all the time with people crying they can't find a group because of H/H, they never consider that maybe it's themselves that's keeping them from getting a group.

Deadly Eyezz · Jun 12, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

And for when you are going for cartography titles or skill hunter? Unless our characters can level up more and be stronger and have better weapons and armor, going out in any late game area with only 4 people will most likely be suicide.

MISSIONS
Please read it before replying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragasa

Yes, I am.

You know the warrior with metor shower things he's damn good also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragasa

And you say that no one will play with you, so I assume you're not a good player. Get better and maybe people will let you join their pugs.

At least i try to find out if i am good or not trying to join groups and i know i am a good monk in FoW because i get "nice healing" alot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragasa

Yet you make a thread saying that people should be forced to play with you. That's an ego. Or a sad cry for attention.

Ego is wanting to play MMO with other people right?
or Ego is being ignorant to people around you and soloing the the game.
Please check Guild Wars and MMORPG on Wikipedia.

Dragasa · Jun 12, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Ego is wanting to play MMO with other people right?
or Ego is being ignorant to people around you and soloing the the game.
Please check Guild Wars and MMORPG on Wikipedia.

I do play with others, and sometimes I play alone. That's what's great about GW, I have a choice. Nice try, but you lose again.

Bryant Again · Jun 12, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

I'm a good player because I've learned from my experiences with PUGs. Learning usually consisted of shouts of "omg you *^%#ing noob, don't bring Orison on your [email protected] wammo!!!"

That's besides the point, however. One person's experience may've been completely different from someone else's.

This is why I don't/can't PUG: I can usually only play Guild Wars in the morning, EST. This is around 10am to 12pm. There's usually like 3 people in every outpost I go to that isn't a city.

As it's already been stated - probably by me as well - but when you're in a PUG you're pretty much asking for trouble. While it can be forgivable in earlier missions, later missions require a proper and viable build. You're grouping with 7 other strangers that you most likely have never met. You don't know how long they've played, you don't know how comfortable they are with their builds, you don't know their weapons (a good build will do little good when the sword is 9-12 damage (I've seen this happen more than I'd like))...You know pretty much jackshit about them.

Depending on who you are, PUGs are risky. For me, since I have little time, I want to know that I'll be able to get through this mission. That's how PUGs are balanced out for me: With a PUG, there's the chance that we'll win, and become greatly satisfied. With Heroes and Henchies I won't get that satisifaction, but I'd lose the frusteration of having to have been in several unsuccessful PUGs. That's a tradeoff I'm willing to go through with.

As Dragasa has said, this is all about choice. Deadly, you like to PUG. You don't want people to play with Heroes and Henchies so that others can PUG. Not everyone wants to. I'm enjoying my game just fine solo. It is my choice to do so and there's nothing wrong with it.

If you're going to blame anything, blame the way Guild Wars is set-up. You can't do anything in it without a full party, human or not. Not to mention that party sizes are rather large - 8 people is a lot when you think about it, and you need them for every single meaningful area. It sucks.

PUGing has been a problem from the start, whether it was realized or not. Sure, back in the day everything was all super awesome, everyone was pugging and having a blast...That was because Guild Wars was brand spankin' new. It was when there wasn't a whole lot of content to play. Now, a few years later, the Guild Wars universe has nearly tripled in size. Has the player population increased? I'd say barely - the fact that I've had three Friend's List's go obsolete leads me to believe that.

I'll end with this: There can be nothing done about PUGs. Yes, I know you want to play with other people. So do I. But the way it's set up completely goes against it. ANet sees this and wants to change it - which is what they're doing in Guild Wars 2. Whether it will be successful or not, we cannot say. But as always with Arenanet, I hope for the best.

Bryant

noblepaladin · Jun 13, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

I think that heroes became a necessity because PuG-ing started to break down when factions came out. Early in prophecies, PuGs were pretty good because most players were bad. However, due to the nature of GW, most players play through the game multiple times with different classes, so they gain an intimate knowledge of the PvE environment and enemies. Also, with guru and wiki, players figured out a lot of tricks that make PvE much easier. The divide between experienced players and "newbie" players grew larger as time progressed.

When Factions came out, all the experienced players either brought it and moved onto Factions (experienced players who didn't buy probably would grow bored of Prophecies and stop playing). I know many of the towns Prophecies became ghost towns when Factions came out. There are some missions that are very difficult to complete without human players (no heroes at the time), even for an experienced player. You basically must use intimate knowledge of the mission and enemies in order to have a chance with just hench. For inexperienced players, some missions became impossibly hard.

When Nightfall comes out, the same would happen for Factions (how many people do you see in some missions such as Eternal Grove?). Also, another effect is that people who have all the campaigns have a significant advantage over people who do not. The gap between the "experienced" players and the "newbies" grew even further. Just in the process of adding new campaigns, the players are spread more thin over towns.

I think that PuG-ing in general started to die long before Heroes came. I know my PuG experience when prophecies first came out was very fun, but as I got better at the game, it just becomes more and more frustrating because I want to get by a mission I have beaten two times before already but can't find a good group (then I start finding tricks to do it with all hench). PuGs probably work better in other games where your ability to beat PvE is more based on your level and equipment rather than your skill bar and your knowledge of the mission. Even inexperienced players can grind out a few extra levels to make up for their inferior play. In GW, experience trumps everything. I have heard of people beating almost every mission in the game solo (with no hench, no heroes, just one character).

Heroes put another large nail in the coffin of PuGs. I view it as a blessing though. Now lesser experienced players have a shot at completing difficult missions in towns where nobody else can be found. And experienced players can enjoy making their own team oriented builds and strategies without having to look for other experienced players to do so.

Evilsod · Jun 13, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadly Eyezz

Ego is wanting to play MMO with other people right?
or Ego is being ignorant to people around you and soloing the the game.
Please check Guild Wars and MMORPG on Wikipedia.

There was me thinking GW was a CORPG... i'm cooperating with heros/hench while the useless pugs whine and bitch about how no-one wants to play with them as they use Inferno on there warrior. Part of the learning process involves you THINKING on what needs improving. Not just others telling you its shit.

agrios · Jun 13, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Heroes did not ruined GW. Au contraire.

They put a little more control and power on player hands, specially the ones like me, that dont have too much time to dedicate do a guild.

For me GW is good because I choose how I will play, when I will play and with whom I will play. This is priceless. And heroes just made it better.

IMHO, GW is not ruined, but a few nerfs and quick leveling messed things a bit. (thats why Prophecies is still the best campaign)